The template system is horrible.

Heck we want more styling hooks in index php not less.

triple7,
It’s true that for some, the WP template can be challenging, but I would not characterise it as being the worst template system out there, and believe me, I’ve used a few.
There is always room for improvement, and constructive comments and suggestions are always welcome. I don’t think that there are actually a zillion CSS properties in the template; the number is probably far less. One thing that WP does allow, is that with that CSS, you can do one of two things: leave it as is, and let the default property values style you page, or, use the properties to have total control over your page. It’s actually the best of both worlds, since you can do as much or as little as you like.
What are your suggestions for making the index.php file less confusing? What specific things do you see as being part of a better template system? My version of a good system is likely different from every other user in the WP community. I’d sure be interested in hearing your ideas.
Thanks for posting. If you have any questions about any part of WP, don’t hesitate to ask!
Craig.

Have you looked at wp.php? It’s a basic template without the li ids and all that jazz. If you know html or have a good editor you can add as much or as little as you like to it.

“What specific things do you see as being part of a better template system?”
CREATE NEW TEMPLATE!
I don’t particularly care for FTP’ing everything “new”. For example, I’m writing a new php include, and as it stands now, I need to save that to my computer, then FTP it up to my server. I would much rather go into WP, press “create new template” or something similar, then paste my code in the box and click save. And there it is, all ready to go. I use the “template manager” and I thought that would help in this, but it doesn’t. While it gives a much better display option for existing templates, the ability to create new templates is just not there ?? I searched for this on the boards and in the wiki, but haven’t found a solution. I “assume” there is none, but if I’m wrong, please please let me know. thanks!

Despite the fact that I don’t agree with anything else that you say Mel, for when I’m not at my own PC a ‘Create New Template’ button would be good.

Sorry, the above post was me, I forgot to log in!

Why are CSS properties “no fun” to edit anyway? Just edit the CSS; by doing so you can emulate pretty much any layout you want. The CSS Zen Garden shows how much you can do using only CSS, with no changes to the HTML at all.

A zillion CSS properties is also no fun to edit.
Hello
A zillion CSS properties would me make WP a bad template system, but an excellent one……
And bay the way i’m not sure CSS has been designed mainly to be fun ??

The CSS Zen Garden shows what people who are great at CSS can do using only CSS and it’s not much help to us lesser mortals who’ve only just about mastered HTML. I was thinking about moving away from Blogger but the requirement to learn CSS has really put me off WordPress. I don’t have time to learn that, I just want to blog ??

You might want to try taking the call to the CSS layout file out of the index file and then you can update through the WP Admin section using the template editor in there. If you feel comfortable enough with CSS, just type in between the <style> tags instead of the call to the wp-layout file. That should eliminate the need for FTP. If you’re not comfortable with CSS, then you can dump the <style> tags and what’s in them all together and go with what your comfortable with. Yes, I know… dumping CSS is a bad thing to discuss here, but, being new to it myself, I understand that it’s hard to learn a new thing when you’ve got a dozen others on your plate to worry about… especially if learning CSS is only to assist in continuing a hobby you don’t get paid for.

Well all you need do is install WordPress and just get started. Everything else is optional. Sometimes I do not know what people mean by *only CSS*. The styling rules need to go somewhere. If they are not in the CSS they need to be inline. In either case without your rule you do not get the styling. That is not to do with CSS particularly. That is the way web sites work. A blogger service might suit you more. Bu, we in the meantime, in the 20,000 or so WP users are having a lot of fun ??

The CSS Zen Garden shows what people who are great at CSS can do using only CSS and it’s not much help to us lesser mortals who’ve only just about mastered HTML.

I’ve often wondered if people are learning Web technologies backwards nowadays. Perhaps CSS should be learned first, and then HTML? It would probably reinforce the concept of semantics much better.
Of course, in order to do that you need some kind of “training wheels” structure language. Perhaps an extremely minimal set of HTML would work for this?

I was thinking about moving away from Blogger but the requirement to learn CSS has really put me off WordPress. I don’t have time to learn that, I just want to blog ??

You can learn the basics of CSS in an afternoon. Once you’ve got that the rest is easily picked up as you need it.

Tabbing is a *very bad thing*. On certain types of application which can and frequently are used for text editing like emacs etc they cause chaos. Space by all means. But not tab.

https://www.visibone.com
He has some very helpful reference cards that I’ve been using to help me learn. Granted, I can code a lot of things in HTML from memory, but I haven’t quote gotten there in CSS, yet. The cards helped a LOT… and I’m a major CSS newbie. There’s still more advanced things out there I’d like to figure out with it, but that will have to come when I have more free time.
(By the way… anyone know what free time is like? ~_^ lol)

Tabbing is a *very bad thing*. On certain types of application which can and frequently are used for text editing like emacs etc they cause chaos. Space by all means. But not tab.

I used to feel the same way, but then was exposed to some coding professionals who allowed me to see the light.
Right now, index.php has some tabbing, but it is not consistent and it is not complete. If tabbing was such a bad thing, there shouldn’t be any tabs at all in index.php.
I do not worry too much about EMACS, in the same way that no one here, as far as I can tell, is very concerned about Lynx support.