WordPress can really be frustrating as hell..

whoami

So, your answer is to say I need to listen to the violins because I’m voicing an opinion about my frustration with WordPress?

jdembowski
And you are saying that I need to plan, like updates to websites are a necessary evil?

Ok, so since neither of you guys know me from a hole in the wall, how about starting off with a little respect? Attacking someone making a point isn’t exactly the kind of forum etiquette I would expect from advanced WordPress users.

I happen to have 25+ sites all running on different flavors of WordPress, and 250+ sites total. My frustration is bourne on the fact that I can use another CMS and not see all the “update flags” all over my dashboard (which also means that my customers who are in the dashboard don’t see them either). And, if either one of you were in the real world of dealing with customers, you both know that the customer is what drives what I do… and some of them aren’t as saavy as you two (or me for that matter).

When a plain jane customer logs into a WordPress dashboard and sees that a new version of WordPress is out, especially the past 4 versions in 4 months… plus plug ins that are constantly being updated, well, they don’t see it as WordPress improving and getting better, they see it as an application that might not be stable, secure or a whole bunch of other terms and buzzwords they’ve picked up along the way.

So, take your shots at me, I’ve got thick skin, but do me a favor, try to realize that there are other people who aren’t the brilliant and enlightened WordPress zealots that you two are.

You’ve got the answer to your problem – you can disabled the notifications with plugins. Drop those in and your customers won’t be bothered.

If you want to try to get the checkbox into core, then maybe head over to the hackers mailing list or the trac and suggest it as a feature.

There is a release schedule for the future, but the web moves on regardless, so security updates will appear from time to time. As someone providing a service you should appreciate the importance of applying those updates.

You know what, I give up.

The users here are obviously way smarter than me.

…’appreciate the importance of applying updates…’

Yeah, I’m a software QA guy by trade, and if you have to keep applying patches and fixes at the rate that WordPress does, then there’s something wrong with the QA process they have.

And, as someone who DOES appreciate the need for updates and bug fixes, that’s not my issue. WordPress is a tool that web programmers and designers use… and hand off to customers. Customers who are NOT as saavy as some of the people on this thread.

I’m not saying WordPress is BAD. I’m saying that there are things that could be done to help make it better and my post was out of frustration that after updating 20 some odd sites with new code, now I’ve got 2.7 update messages to deal with, and I’m not sure I want to MOVE to 2.7 just yet, given how fast updates come out with new point releases.

I want to stop updating sites and get some work done on NEW sites.

There’s really no need for the attitude.

Yes, there’s something wrong with the QA. It’s because you have maybe 100 people doing testing on the betas and then hundreds of thousands of people with different server configs who download the release version.

If you want to help yourself out then a) you’ve had an answer and further suggestions as to what you can do and b) you could participate in the beta programs and help reduce the number of release errors.

And, to be fair, it’s not the WordPress devs who are handing WordPress to your customers, it’s you. So you need to manage that relationship.

Maybe one of the mods could wrap this thread up.

jdembowski
And you are saying that I need to plan, like updates to websites are a necessary evil?

I happen to have 25+ sites all running on different flavors of WordPress, and 250+ sites total.

I didn’t say evil. But it is a fact of life for any dynamic web pages on the Internet. From your reply it’s obvious you know and understand that.

I’m assuming that you don’t do this out of the goodness of your heart (that would be very cool though). The number of blogs and installations you have means that you fall into a class of user that needs a means of monitoring and keeping up to date. If that’s the agreement with your customers, then it is a problem you have to deal with.

Or you could just use those plugins I gave you links to and work on it on your own planned schedule.

Ok, so since neither of you guys know me from a hole in the wall, how about starting off with a little respect? Attacking someone making a point isn’t exactly the kind of forum etiquette I would expect from advanced WordPress users.

So, take your shots at me, I’ve got thick skin, but do me a favor, try to realize that there are other people who aren’t the brilliant and enlightened WordPress zealots that you two are.

You’re not a hole in the wall. You’re someone who took a chance and publicly asked for advice. You were treated with respect but also a little bit of humor and sarcasm; it’s a public forum and it happens.

You were not attacked by anyone. Someone else talked about migrating to a managed service (WordPress.COM) and that was discussed.

I gave you advice and pointed you to TWO plugins that will directly address the problem you are having. If you want to avail yourself of that option, please do. But advice here is free and you can, and I hope will, do what you like.

Yeah, I’m a software QA guy by trade

Then you know about regression testing, QA cycles, and code release schedules. You are probably better educated when it comes to deciding to upgrade or not.

If you want a version of WordPress that is managed and someone else handles the upgrades then there are commercial options available for you.

If you want to just turn off the notifications so you can handle patches and upgrades on a planned schedule, then scroll up and check out the two plugins I mentions.

Ok, look, here is the deal.

Sometimes, I manage a customers website. When I am the one doing it, I do all the updates, since my customer NEVER looks at the back end.

However, there are customers who like to think they are saavy and they are not. I build them a site they want with a custom design and get it running, get their content posted and then hand it off to them. They are well informed of the fact they are on an open source platform that gets upgraded often… along with plug ins that also get upgraded often.

That doesn’t change the fact that these ‘saavy users’ will send me an email that says “I’ve had to upgrade this code 4 times plus upgrade the XX number of plugins… why the hell do I have to keep doing this?”

That’s not *me* talking, that’s an end user.

For the clients I have that do have these complaints, I will be adding the plugins suggested and I will manage their sites on the backend of my dedicated server.

Regression cycles, QA cycles and release schedules are all dictated by development and marketing. Neither one leaves the appropriate amount of time for QA, ever. The whole idea of agile or scrum engineering makes me want to barf, since it’s always about getting code out fast. The problem with that is you leave yourself at risk for missing testing in the regression cycles, like the permalinks problem a few rleases ago… a simple feature that went belly up and it never should have.

I’ve done my share of QA work and set process in place for many startups. Every one will say “go fast” and every one winds up having to “slow down” because go fast = breaks eventually.

If it were mine to do, I’d remove the ‘visible’ upgrade notifications and put something on the dashboard that allows you to see the release history and the issues fixed by it.

The X.X.XX version is available, please upgrade now is cryptic at best. Same goes for plugins.

If a user can see a list of fixes and dependencies, they can then choose whether they are affected by those changes and make a decision as to if they should upgrade or not.

Updates where interfaces and functionality changes are implemented should be considered ‘upgrades’, they are new releases… and given the speed with which the fixes come ofter point releases and then the flood of plugin changes, many of us choose to not move right away, just to avoid more work just get get the current content and functionlaity working.

Regression cycles, QA cycles and release schedules are all dictated by development and marketing.

They are also irrelevant to an open source project, because your site is your responsibility.

Every site is a different piece of software. WordPress is just a part of that site. If you depend on your site for your business, then you should be doing your own testing and not expecting somebody else to do it for you.

If your customers don’t like upgrading and testing, then you should not have set them up with an unmanaged website to begin with. Your basic problem here is that your customers want to put text on a webpage, which is a whole different thing from “running a website”. Running a website, being a webmaster, is an actual JOB that requires WORK, and if you customer doesn’t understand that, you should have and stopped them from getting something they should not have in the first place.

I would never set up WordPress, or any other web management software, for a client that did not know what they were getting into. I’d set them up with a managed system, like WordPress.com, instead. That way they don’t have to worry about upgrades or plugins or anything else, just writing their content.

For the clients I have that do have these complaints, I will be adding the plugins suggested and I will manage their sites on the backend of my dedicated server.

Seems to me like you should have been doing that all along. I’d suggest looking closely at WordPress MU to run your clients sites. Simpler than customizing a version of WP each and every time.

Does everyone in the WordPress world talk down to people who post on the forums? Seriously, I’ve never thought that would be the case here, but it unfortunately is here.

First point, open source or not, the community that is building it (be it a development team, a plug in author or an open source community) is responsible to a great degree for it’s own QA. The integration of plug ins, design and additional PHP authoring I do DOES get tested and it gets quite a bit before I hand it off to someome.

Second point, I give my customers what they want. If they say they want the ability to have pages and posts and all the other things I can put together within WordPress (or another CMS), then that is what they get. They are forewarned as to keeping their site up to date, etc. I certainly do offer them more than just WordPress, such as other CMS platforms, straight html and php or a host of other solutions. WordPress Multi-User isn’t the answer either.

While I know running a website is work (and thanks for the unbelievable lesson and waking me up to the real world), the clientele that comes thru any design or programming job has no idea as to what being a webmaster *is*. They have no concept of SEO, code, management or anything else… they just want a website they can change the content on and not have to pay a maintenance fee on. Easy enough, I give it to them and off they go, sometimes to be happy, sometimes not.

Again, I just suprised that other users in this forum take it upon themselves to be somewhat condescending in their attitidues, especially without having a grasp as to who I am, who my customer base is and just saying “you know, I can see your point… but have you thought of this?”

I’ll be sure to post to the forums only when I have a REAL problem.

Does everyone in the WordPress world talk down to people who post on the forums? Seriously, I’ve never thought that would be the case here, but it unfortunately is here.

Are you incapable of telling the difference between “talking straight” and “talking down”? Seriously, I’ve read this thread, and other than some light humor, nobody has said one word to you that could be considered rude. I was very blunt and matter of fact in my response, I grant you, but seriously, lighten up.

While I know running a website is work (and thanks for the unbelievable lesson and waking me up to the real world), the clientele that comes thru any design or programming job has no idea as to what being a webmaster *is*. They have no concept of SEO, code, management or anything else… they just want a website they can change the content on and not have to pay a maintenance fee on. Easy enough, I give it to them and off they go, sometimes to be happy, sometimes not.

Well, that’s fine and all, but then you really only have yourself to blame if they complain to you about it then, eh? Consider how you do your requirements gathering as well. Are you selling a solution to their problems, or just selling them what they ask for in the full knowledge that it’s not what they actually need?

Second point, I give my customers what they want.

I got that, but I was trying to point out that your customers usually have no idea what they want. You need to give them what they actually need instead. Sell them a solution.

Look, most people who ask you to create them a website don’t want or even need to manage their own website. That was my point to start with. You seem to be a smart person, so I figured you’d know that, but I thought it was worth pointing out anyway.

I’ll be sure to post to the forums only when I have a REAL problem.

We’d prefer that, yes. Because if you’re just going to come here and complain about this FREE product that you got for FREE and without offering any real suggestions or ideas or, you know, anything constructive at all, then your threads are quite likely to get closed.

Much like this one just did.