www.ads-software.com – forum topic editor – formatting problems

[MKSnMKS]

I have noticed that the underline format doesn’t show an underline.
The bold, itallics, and b-quote work.
I don’t know about the other formats, so I’ll example them here.

(Line above the underline)

Underline

(Line below the underline)

The following, I don’t know how well these will work;
Thanks
OL`
<ol>
1
2
3</ol>`

Li
1
2
3
The below should all be good.
Bold itallic

B-Quote

Code
More Code

If any of these (e.g. underline) are not properly shown in this example, then what may be the cause?

Thanks

[Andrew Nevins]

Do you mean on your theme or on the forums?
I realise you mean these forums. Where is the underline button? If you mean the ul button, this does not represent ‘underline’. This represents the ‘unordered list’ tag known as the <ul> tag in HTML.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 2 months ago by Andrew Nevins.
• This reply was modified 7 years, 2 months ago by Andrew Nevins.
• This reply was modified 7 years, 2 months ago by Andrew Nevins.
• This reply was modified 7 years, 2 months ago by Andrew Nevins.

[MKSnMKS]

Hi Andrew,
Thanks for that.

So is there a way to get “underline” in the editor?
perhaps by typing in <something> ?
(or not?)

[Andrew Nevins]

Not by the user. The www.ads-software.com developers will need to add that in as a separate button.

Bear in mind the underline button was removed from WordPress because it was widely misused, which probably effects the decision not to provide it on these forums.

[MKSnMKS]

Hi Andrew,
Thanks for the info.
I didn’t know that there had been a problem with people misusing underlines on WordPress.

An explanation of why I would find “underline” or something like it, handy.

When I ask about a problem, I include the following ingredients;

a statement of the problem
a description of events
questions seeking a solution

not necessarily in that order, and may be accompanied by additional ingredients.
Each ingredient is most clearly delineated in the steps of the topic, by being underlined (or other form of distinguishing).

similarly for a suggestion, ingredients would include;

a statement of general concept
options for methods to achieve the result
description of benefits from the solution
discussion of pros and cons
and more

Although, a topic can be created with no formatting at all, a sensible application of formatting to text can improve the readability and scan-ability of the text. I find that bold is about the next best format after underlining for this, possibly along with a “;” at the end of the bolded (title) line.

so (seeking a solution),
Q1)Is “bold” considered to be okay for use as a way to subtitle ingredients/components/paragraphs/sections within a topic?

Also
(thinking about some other possibility),
Q2) Might it be possible to create some pseudo-markup convention for formatting?

The concept being that a topic or reply author could surround a text say “<title>Some Title</title>” for example.
Then the moderator can decide whether these can be replaced with html code, (after the article has become un-editable) that matches the site requirements for standardised formatting.

Alternatively
Q3) Is there possibility for say an insertion of h3,h4,or h5 heading formats?
These may or may not use underline (depending on what ever form the previous misuse of underlines took), but in any case use a format that is befitting of a small sub title. for example Slightly larger first font of first word, or every word in the title, or different font style, or different colour.

This was a question, but it may be developing into a suggestion/request,
so please let me know if you want me to re present it as a request.

I am just tossing a few ideas around.

Thanks for your help.

[James Huff]

There were many reasons the underline button was removed from WordPress, and you can find the details of that hashed out at https://make.www.ads-software.com/core/2016/10/28/editor-changes-in-4-7/ and https://core.trac.www.ads-software.com/ticket/27159

The biggest reasons though were accessibility and confusion. Links are often styled by themes with underlines already, so when plain text is underlined it adds to the confusion of “Why doesn’t this link go anywhere when I click it?” which hits visually impaired visitors the hardest.

Considering that the underline button was removed from WordPress itself for very valid reason after lengthy discussion, I highly doubt it will ever make an appearance in these forums.

If you need something for emphasis here, I recommend bold or italics instead.

[MKSnMKS]

Hi James,
I can understand where the confusion caused by underlining comes from.
What I have noticed though, is that the confusion is due to the titles being a similar color to the links.
The confusion tends not to arise when the underlined text is similar in color to the main body text.

The user used to be prompted to a link by both color and an underline.

(Maybe the day will come, when a person picks up a book and starts poking the page with their finger – trying to activate the link under the title).

There is a lot of feedback, that is asking for both the underline and full justify back, or saying that the two should remain as options for the user to use.

However it must be noted that the editor in that article is for wordpress 4.7, and it not specifically about the editor on this site (which can be adjusted to avoid confusions).

This is an example of the organic approach to meeting the balance between usability and functionality.

The keyboard shortcuts are good and most people that comment about those like them. They detract little from performance, and greatly aid adaptive learning of the editor, for improved efficiency of use.

Thanks for your help.

[Andrew Nevins]

The confusion tends not to arise when the underlined text is similar in color to the main body text.

What about people with colour blindness?

[Andrew Nevins]

Although, a topic can be created with no formatting at all, a sensible application of formatting to text can improve the readability and scan-ability of the text. I find that bold is about the next best format after underlining for this, possibly along with a “;” at the end of the bolded (title) line.

And that would be a misuse of the underline tag.
https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/u

Though your thoughts on headings would be more appropriate. Headings should be used to title sections of content. At least then people with visual impairments using assistive technologies will also be able to identify sections of content as easy as sighted users.

[pingram]

@mksnmks you’re not going to win this one.

The use of underlines as “emphasis” and not as “hyperlinks” only is felt to create a moral dilemma by perpetuating a bad use in web design that should no longer be tolerated.

Welcome to web politics. j/k, kind of…

I’ve heard arguments on both sides. Using underlines on non-links can momentarily trick a visitor into thinking a link exists however this is just a minor annoyance and not a travesty by any means, I’m sure they’ll figure out and be ok. I’ve also heard from those with visual impairments that underlines inside the body of text while reading, even when strictly used for hyperlinks, is distracting or makes the text harder to read. Then there’s the hyperlinks without the anticipated underline and unless you provide one of the many other “modern” ways to suggest the area/item is clickable it could very well get overlooked and this is definitely a valid point for consideration but that’s all it should be IMO.

There is no web standard that I’ve ever found that defines an underline, i.e. <u> tag or css text-decoration: underline; as an indication of an anchor/link. However browsers still (by default) underline all anchor tags because that’s what they’ve been doing since the early days and no ones told them not to. And as a result, has caused the general adoption over the years that underlines = hyperlinks. Again, this was more appropriate back in the early days when the web was less graphically rich.

Taking another step back, WordPress, originally offered as a blogging platform that brought a Word-Processor approach to folks “writing” on the web, had this feature built-in for quite some time but has recently been removed from core as well as from the support forums here by a select few. I don’t recall there ever being an open debate about this in make.wp.org discussions…at least until after it was implemented (I could be wrong in my recollection). I didn’t agree with this decision personally as it seemed drastic for the use-case (or wrong-use-case in this example) but I also don’t really care outside of the fact that I’m still perplexed something of such micro-significance was even brought into scope in the first place. Did I miss the march? Did I miss the masses complaining about being duped by the false underlines or lack thereof? I mean, I can search the web and find small arguments here and there but still very niche, “webophile” type stuff is all I can find.

In core, one can however still have underlines for emphasis if they *really* have to have them…but they also will need to know how to either code/css or install a special plugin because the Word-Processor-like editor no longer provides the underline feature in the kitchen sink.

Why we don’t have a browser feature that allows one to forcefully underline all text links and removing all underlines of non-linked text when desired is beyond me. Seems like that would be less invasive than removing a long time feature that is still a valid element in both html5 and Word Processors.

[MKSnMKS]

Hi Philip Ingram (@pingram3541),

1) Re

The use of underlines as emphasis is felt to create a moral dilemma by perpetuating a bad use that can no longer be tolerated.

As to my topic; I was not wanting to use underline for emphasis. I wanted to use underline for “titles“. As I understand it, this is a centuries old literary (if not grammatical) tool.
What I have found is that with underlining being non existent, that some form of emphasis is required as a substitute, which is inadequate.

So this problem rephrased amounts to ;
How do we show a title, so that it is readily understood to be a title?
Is there a new convention for how to title ? for;
a) on the internet
b) on paper

2) I will read the rest of your comment when I get some time, and possibly will respond also.

But I will comment on your “intro”, Re “

you’re not going to win this one.

”

Just to build understanding;
I do not employ a “win” or “Loose” outlook, and I prefer to avoid adversarial approaches to problem solving. I put forward suggestions believing (in large part) that they are sensible. There may be many reasons why a suggestion is not taken up, and hopefully that is because there is good sense not to.

Thank you

[pingram]

@mksnmks Gotcha. I realize now that I’ve since revised my response but only after you’ve read it, at least partially, and now you’ve responded back so that might throw others off that read this thread later. Sorry about that folks. I also realize its a bit of a rant on the underline thing but I felt I had to say something because I don’t feel there was much consideration about how expected and commonly used these features are once they’ve been in core for a long time and we don’t like having to explain the technicals of why the underline feature was removed from the editor to our clients.

Your point taking it further here in use on these forums, the lack of easy to use tools to define a title/heading in a manner it is recognizable as so, where an underline would meet that need but there are other alternatives that could also be acceptable too, outside of only bold and italicize. For the time being, I would suggest maybe Roman numerals or other creative things like double hashes before and after if needed. i.e.

I. Heading
II. Heading
III. Heading
## Heading ##
-= Heading =-
:: Heading ::

or even all caps…

THE PROBLEM(S):

-point 1
-point 2
-point 3

THE DETAILS:

…blah blah blah…

THE SPECS:

wp ver: 4.8.1
apache v: …
theme: …

[James Huff]

If you absolutely need an underline button in the WordPress editor, consider https://www.ads-software.com/plugins/tinymce-advanced/ or https://www.ads-software.com/plugins/re-add-underline-justify/

Getting back on topic though, there are no plans to add an underline button for these forums (which is what the original request was about) due to the already stated accessibility concerns. If you need something for emphasis here on these forums, I recommend bold or italics instead.

[MKSnMKS]

Hi Philip Ingram (@pingram3541),
Thanks for confirming clarification.
I was addressing the “win” approach, and wanted to be clear about intentions to maintain happiness (where ever possible, and I do understand things can be very frustrating at times).
Any way, please do not worry about the rant, as I said, I will read it and probably comment on it (but in a few days).

By the way,
Re;

I realize now that I’ve since revised my response but only after you’ve read it

a) how did you revise your response?
b) how did you revise your response after it had been read?

Hi James Huff (@macmanx),
I notice that the TinyMCE plugin has had 2 million installs (over the years?), and the other plugin has had 30,000+ and would have been useful since WP4.7 . These are downloaded by people that have been told about them, or think to look for something that returns the underline. There are probably many others who have not found them, or imagined to look for them.

Thanks to you, I am now one of the people that have been told about them, and will look at them.

Here’s a thought;
Use a style for “title” (heading) format, as a dummy.
If there is any hope of having some sort way to format a title, some time in the future, then a style type could be used. But until the style type that will actually be used is decided upon, then in the mean time a title can be formatted using a title style type set to a dummy setting, such as ordinary text/paragraph.
But would it be possible to set the format say to <H13> or something like that, so it is a header type format, but very low rank.
This allows the following matters to be solved;
a) The www.ads-software.com site can choose whatever formatting they want, and change it any time they want, just by changing the CSS.
b) The heading number is so low, that it would hardly rank with search engines (if it got noticed at all), and so would deter the over use of headings for rankings. The heading number may be set so low, that it means nothing if used on any other website.
c) This also means that when a style/format is eventually decided upon, all previously styled topics will immediately show in the new format, which maintains backward compatibility.

The fundamental objective is to be able to signify that something is a title, whatever the styling that is used, and that that styling is (preferably) unique to the use of titles, so that it can not cause confusion (nor should be abused).
It could be a different font, or slightly larger font, that is used for the <H13> style – just something uniquely different, that satisfies all other criteria for all concerned.

As I understand it, the problem is with the “format/style” (e.g. confusion with similar styling to links) for titles, and is not that there is some objection to the use of titles in text (e.g. abuse of text, by over use of titles).

[MKSnMKS]

Hi Philip Ingram (@pingram3541),
I have had a quick read of your “rant” – not bad.

Something that might help, re;

Why we don’t have a browser feature that allows one to forcefully underline all text links and removing all underlines of non-linked text when desired is beyond me. Seems like that would be less invasive than removing a long time feature that is still a valid element in both html5 and Word Processors.

Thanks for asking. It prompted me to ask myself the same question. I use several browsers. But I checked Firefox. There are ways to customize it well beyond the menu system settings, but the menu settings is as far as one needs to go. The location in the menu varies between versions.So I’ll give instructions more generally on
How to force underlines for links in Firefox;
i) Look for “preferences” or “options”
2) Under either of those, look for “Content” (This will probably be on the same menu that starts with “General”).
3) Look for the section “titled” “Fonts & Colors”, then click on “Colors”.
4) In the box or page that is displayed after clicking on “colors”, look for a checkbox that is labelled “Underline Links”. Put a check mark in the box and all is done.
Notes ;
a) You can also force the color system that your browser uses, in the options at this and some previous points along the way to here.
This is useful if you happen to have sight impairments, or color blindness, so what ever site you are looking at, your browser will force the formats that you have chosen to best suit your own sight requirements.
b) Though it is possible to force links to be underlined, it is not specific as to whether it can alternatively force links to be stripped of underlines (which it may well do, but I haven’t checked to confirm).

As you seem to be alluding to – it is far more easier if the folks with special visual requirements are afforded the capability to over ride any/all websites, through their own browser settings, rather than all websites try to cater for them by using settings which maybe even some of the visually impaired would not prefer.

Perhaps a similar system could be set up for titles.
Nobody would need to vote, be consulted, or be forced to accept any changes, because they could all set their own browsers to read titles how they wish (if only there was some format/style that can be used for the “title” – which could be set to ordinary fonts styles on the website).

I hope this is helpful.

[pingram]

@mksnmks thanks for the feedback and detailed response (and time) you invested in looking up how to choose one’s own website style overrides using Firefox. I’m sure some folks will find that very useful and amusing that there was a simple solution all along and we didn’t really need to forcefully eject a long-time feature from the platform.

a) how did you revise your response?

Upon initial submission of a comment here, an “edit” option appears but goes away and never comes back after x amount of time. It’s something short like 5-15min. (note: only the link disappears, not your ability to edit it, as long as you know the url format you can edit any time i beleive)

b) how did you revise your response after it had been read?

I was already in the process of editing while you were likely reading (and responding) to my original comment. I wasn’t aware of your response until after submission of the edit. A cool and useful feature might be a way to show a comment is being edited kind of like how many messaging apps show when a remote party is typing.